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Kendrick Lamar - 'Mortal Man' (To Pimp A Butterfly - 2015)

The Run Out Grooves:

So, Kendrick Lamar, on ‘Mortal Man’, the final track on your 2015 album To Pimp A Butterfly, there are a few names you mention that you use to tie the album’s theme together. Firstly you speak of Nelson Mandela, and you’ve visited his cell on Robben Island for inspiration and maybe even to find some clarity. Mandela is someone who spoke to more than one generation with his work and actions against apartheid in South Africa; is it fair for people to make any comparison between his leadership and how you inspire your fans? Do you see yourself in that type of role?

Kendrick¹:

First off, it takes years, and it takes wisdom to do the work that they've done; Mandela and Martin Luther King. I hold myself responsible for that for the generation at the time because I got to see these kids every day. And like I said on ‘I’, They got slit wrists and come to me saying my music saved their lives and things like that. I can learn from that, that's me - whether I want it, like it or not, I gotta accept it, you know, saying so, for this generation - Yes.

The Run Out Grooves:

Do you worry about what happens to men and women placed on pedestals like that? Mandela spent over a quarter of a century incarcerated, and Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. were assassinated. You want your fans to look into Mandela’s life, you want them to free their minds and look at what holds back Black America, and you know your fans take your music very seriously indeed. You’ve alluded to murder in this song, your previous two albums and on ‘The Blacker The Berry’; by the album’s end, you are questioning whether your fiancée would wait 25 years for you if you served a prison sentence as long as Mandela’s and if your family and friends suffering would be a price willing to pay if you become a martyr for a cause.

Kendrick:

It's a trip, man, because let me tell you this. This is real at the moment, an article comes out, and then people are angry at you from what they're reading, and you say, “Did you record that song ‘Mortal Man’ like a week ago? Because you use the same sentiments, it is the same thing that you're talking about. We are so confined with hatred and want to point out people's flaws that we don't see the big picture and what they're doing, and it's been done with leaders way before my time. - they did it to Jesus Christ. I’m just a man; that’s why we called it ‘Mortal Man’

The Run Out Grooves:

<discordant jazz kicks in>

This brings us to Michael Jackson; he is mentioned in the song, at one point alongside all those political figures and leaders like Mandela, Malcolm X, JFK and Jesse Jackson Jr. He was one of the most revered singers of the 20th century with record sales, critical acclaim and influence on whole genres of music, he still had a complex and complicated private life which, rightly, saw high levels of public scrutiny.

Kendrick:

And it's accepting it and managing it but also challenging the listener, the person who says they love you. And they believe in your messaging and music. That’s what that's doing. For me, Michael will forever be the greatest. I would never want to even think about putting myself on the same level as Michael simply because I haven’t put in the work that he did.

The Run Out Grooves:

Speaking of idols, you interview Tupac at the song’s climax - or at least you use an interview he did with a Swedish radio station in 1993 to construct the impression of a dialogue. How did that come about?

Kendrick:

That was another gift, man. I got the audio recording when I was in Germany. Cool guy, man. I interviewed with him. And he told me Tupac, and I have the same sentiments even though we're far from age. He said I want you to have something. Sure enough, I took it back to the bus, and I played it; it’s a full, unreleased joint of him just asking questions and what intrigued me the most what gave me the idea is that the answers that ‘Pac is given are answers for today, our time and age. And I said the world has gotta hear this, and they got to hear it on a major scale. And I got the opportunity so I give love and thanks to his mother for allowing me to use her son’s vocals in a positive light. I want to thank her for allowing me to do that.

The Run Out Grooves:

Tupac has been a theme in your career; you’ve even mentioned on Big Sean’s ‘Control’ that you are Makaveli’s offspring. You reference him on ‘Hiipower’ What memories do you have of him from when you were a kid? I hear that you were in the background when they filmed the video for ‘California Love’

Kendrick:

I just went back to that same Compton Swap Meet, jumped on the roof of the Compton Swap Meet and shot 'King Kunta' there, and all the kids were out looking, and a good friend of mine said, 'You was one of the kids looking at 'Pac when he was up here doing that; now they're looking at you. And it blew me away, tripped me out. Fifteen years later, I’m doing the same thing ‘Pac was doing. This is just a beautiful thing.

The Run Out Grooves:

We could talk all day on ‘Mortal Man’ it feels like a song that explores the durability of your credibility as an artist and as a voice and takes in this grand sweep of the album’s themes, especially exploring the topic of loyalty and what it means for a fan and artist relationship in the late 2010s. A lot of energy and care went into the whole album.

Kendrick:

That's what it was made for. I want it to be; I want it to be that way. I wanted it to be intricate. When I made my first record. Good Kid, M.A.A.D City, I understood there was a level of demographics that I could hit, but I was still able to manoeuvre and weave to get to the message I wanted to convey.

But this time, I say I want to take it upon myself to go 100% the way I want to, and I'm glad you accepted it and that the people would appreciate it.

The Run Out Grooves:

So much more we could ask. We’ve not even touched on the title of the album, coming not just from the poetry at the end concerning the caterpillar turning into a butterfly but how TU Pimp A Caterpillar as a working title spelt out Tupac. We’ve not discussed how well Tupac nailed some of the issues facing many Western countries with inequality and the ultra-wealthy pulling the drawbridge up behind themselves. Your experiences with the cops and how that ties into BLM and #MeToo movements. How does all this tie in with the Ferguson shootings, Trayvon Martin, and others? Maybe you could tell us how you have been able to repeatedly deliver quality albums after others gave up trying years beforehand. The role toxic masculinity plays in defining what masculinity means for some youths and how you continued to explore these themes of identity across your most recent album, Mr Morale & the Big Steppers.

What’s your perspective on that?

Kendrick? Kendrick? Kendrick?

1. I have not interviewed Kendrick Lamar - his contributions to this article come from the following interviews, which I’ve lightly edited for flow, tense and subject-verb agreement.

https://www.mtv.com/news/5hdkvx/kendrick-lamar-interviews-2pac-to-pimp-a-butterfly

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/03/arts/music/kendrick-lamar-on-a-year-of-knowing-what-matters.html